The Clemson Dubcast

Inside the NTBA

Bobby Couch had a big job at Clemson when he was a major fundraiser for IPTAY.

But that's not what Dan Radakovich was angry about when he called Couch to his office one day a decade or so ago.

Radakovich wanted to talk to Couch about his other, more unofficial job: Commissioner of the Noon Time Basketball Association.

The NTBA, played on weekdays, was largely athletics department staffers and personnel from the football and basketball teams.

But one day an outsider showed up wearing Gamecock gear, and Dabo Swinney gave him some grief over it. The guy didn't take kindly to it, and the confrontation got nasty and was about to get physical.

The spat was resolved, but it got the attention of Radakovich and the ritual NTBA games were put on a lengthy hiatus while Couch could trim the roster of invitees.

"Here I am getting called to the principal's office not as a senior associate director of IPTAY, but for my role as NTBA commissioner," Couch said. "He's basically telling me I've got to shut this thing down.

"Of course the first person who called me after we shut it down and asked me what the heck was going on was Coach Swinney, because he wanted to get back out on the court. I'm like: 'Hey dude. We had to shut this thing down because of you.'"

Couch also remembers Brent Venables showing up to a noontime game wearing a mouthpiece.

The ferocious Venables ended up accidentally jabbing Couch in face and giving him a huge black eye. Two days later, Couch had to speak to a large donor group the day the Tigers were facing Georgia in Athens.

Those are just two of many memories that come flooding back about the NTBA days with Clemson (and NTBA) alum Will Wade about to face Clemson in the first round of the NCAA Tournament.

We also interview Chad Lampman, a Clemson alum who preceded Couch as NTBA commissioner before he left for a position at Duke where he's been for 15 years.

And UNC Asheville basketball coach Michael Morrell joins the podcast to share his most vivid memories of the NTBA.

To Morrell, those games encapsulated the rare bond at Clemson shared among the staffs regardless of sport.

"There's just something different about that place, man," said Morrell, who was on Oliver Purnell's staff. "There's just something different there that's special.

"I always thought it was cool how the football and basketball staffs there found ways to have relationships. I was on the basketball staff at Texas for three years, and no offense to Texas but I didn't even know the football coaches there. Didn't even know them.

"But at Clemson you knew everybody, man. And it still seems like it's the same for them there now. Gosh, man. What a cool place to be a player, a coach, a writer or whatever. Because it's not that way everywhere."

 

 

Tom Allen, Will Heldt

Tom Allen has been a breath of fresh air around Clemson's football program as he injects authority and energy that were lacking before Dabo Swinney hired him from Penn State.

He's already gone back and watched plenty of film from last year, including of the first two practices. He didn't like what he saw.

Allen goes in-depth on his task at his new job and how it differs from the objective he had a year ago when he took over the Nittany Lions.

Will Heldt made a big splash by signing with Clemson out of the transfer portal, and he's made an even bigger one over the past couple months during intense workouts and practices. 

Bottom line after he won just five games the past two years at Purdue: He's hungry to win big, and that hunger has rubbed off on a group of returning players who have won a lot but not enough for their liking.

 

Jock McKissic

Jock McKissic's new book looks like it could've been written by Dabo Swinney.

That's how much impact McKissic's former coach has had on his life, from his career as a Clemson defensive lineman from 2005 to 2008, all the way to this day.

In 50 Principles to Thrive in Life From Half-Full to Overflowing, McKissic explores themes such as The Coffee Bean Principle, why comfort is your greatest enemy, and how to control the controllables.

But the most meaningful chapter to McKissic is: "Flowers for the living -- why waiting until it's too late to appreciate people is the biggest regret of all."

"I give my male peers flowers," McKissic said. "Because most men don't get flowers until they're dead. I don't want anybody around me to get their first bouquet of flowers when they're at their own funeral."

McKissic, who conducted the interview from a DMV parking lot in Los Angeles, also explores the other parts of a life that has ventured far from his roots in Alabama and Clemson.

McKissic was born in Opelika, Ala. His mother Cynthia D. Smith took notice to his love for entertaining early. Jock began acting in church & school plays at age 7. His love for the craft would continue to flourish, but took a back seat to sports once he reached high school. During his tenure at Clemson University, McKissic would occasionally join the improv team on campus for events. In 2012 he found his way back to the camera on USA television show, Necessary Roughness. After retiring from football later that year, Jock took on acting full time. His resume continues to expand, but not only as an actor; as a writer and director as well.

Mark Tinsley

In her book The Devil at His Elbow: Alex Murdaugh and the Fall of a Southern Dynasty, author Valerie Bauerlein hones in on not just Mark Tinsley's central role in the fall but his full story.

Away from the courtroom, Tinsley's passion is traveling to isolated regions of the world and hunting big game.

He has stalked Dall sheep on the edge of the Arctic Circle, moose in the Yukon, mule deer in the rocky hills of the Mexican border and grizzlies across the remote Alaskan islands.

An excerpt from the book:

Tinsley raised the sight to the ram's chest and steeled himself, doing his best to ignore the ache in his hand and the throbbing in his back. Everything he had endured to reach this moment was its own reward. He took a deep breath, exhaled slightly, then held the exhalation and squeezed the trigger. A half second later, the ram fell. Tinsley stood up and hiked toward his prize. He did not feel triumphant. He felt grateful.

Many trial lawyers are hunters, known in both their personal and professional lives for their willingness to draw blood.

Tinsley joins The Dubcast to recount in detail his decision to take on former friend Alex Murdaugh by representing the family of Mallory Beach.

Initially Murdaugh and plenty of other people in the legal profession believed Tinsley was going to be an ally to Murdaugh in the wrongful death lawsuit -- "a friendly lawsuit," as Murdaugh called it.

Murdaugh soon learned otherwise, and he confronted Tinsley at an annual trial lawyer gathering on Hilton Head.

"Alex saw me and he came straight across the room," Tinsley said. "He wants to know: 'What's this I've been hearing about you saying you want a pound of flesh and I'm going to have to pay?'"

Tinsley's response: "If you don't think I can burn your house down, you're sorely mistaken." 

Playing a major role in bringing down the Murdaugh dynasty has made Tinsley a celebrity who's recognized almost everywhere he goes. 

But battling Murdaugh while also fighting stage four prostate cancer has made Tinsley better in ways far beyond fame and fortune. 

"It helped me really focus on what matters. There are so many times in life we get all wrought up in these little things that at the end of the day don't really matter: 'My daughter's room wasn't clean enough. She left her plate of food on the table,' or whatever it may be. I think the thing I got most out of it was watching the Beaches, helping them what they've gone through, and who they are in spite of what happened to them.

"It made me want to be a better person. It made me want to focus on things like underage drinking and the hazards of it. If we can make the world a better place, a safer place, we ought to do so. So now I focus on things like that. I want to be a better person. I want to do good things. I want to be remembered for something other than Alex Murdaugh."

Tinsley is a Clemson graduate who said he wore an orange backpack when he attended law school in Columbia.

His daughter Emma is a current Clemson student studying Criminal Justice, and she plans to attend law school after graduation.

 

 

 

Valerie Bauerlein

As a reporter for the Wall Street Journal, Valerie Bauerlein had a front-row seat to the most captivating murder trial since OJ Simpson.

But Bauerlein did more than file dispatches to her newspaper during Alex Murdaugh's trial: She wrote the definitive narrative of not just the Murdaugh story, but the roots of the generational power the Murdaugh family wielded in Hampton County for more than a century as they made problems go away by making lies look like the truth.

In The Devil at His Elbow: Alex Murdaugh and the Fall of a Southern Dynasty, Bauerlein delivers a masterpiece of reporting, organization and storytelling. 

Bauerlein, a national reporter who writes about small-town America and Southern politics, economics and culture, joins The Dubcast to reflect not just on her process of writing the book but also some fascinating parts of the backstory that didn't make the final edit -- including an early-1900s march on the Horseshoe in Columbia by Randolph Murdaugh Sr. to bring back football after it was banned.

Bauerlein also explores some questions that remain unanswered even as Alex is in prison for the murders of his wife Maggie and son Paul:

Did Alex have help in carrying out the murders?

How close was Alex to averting a guilty verdict?

Where is all the money he stole from people who most needed it, including the family of Gloria Satterfield?

Bauerlein lives in the Raleigh area with her husband and two children.

Before joining the Journal in 2005, she worked as a congressional correspondent for the News & Observer in Raleigh, a legislative reporter at The State in Columbia, and a cops reporter at the Winston-Salem Journal.

Otis Pickett

For the first time in 156 years, Clemson University has brought the Will of Thomas Green Clemson back to campus.

"Not having the Will here would be like the United States not knowing where the Constitution was, or knowing where it was but not having access to it every day -- the original document," says university historian Otis Pickett.

"And now Clemson -- our Constitution, our founding document -- is home in our archives. We can look at it. We can study it. We can look at all the little details of it. We can see all the little important provenance of that document that helps us better understand how to be Clemson."

Pickett rejoins The Clemson Dubcast to articulate his dream of having that document on display for everyone to be able to view "and to say: That's the document that started this whole thing."

"We are working on a Clemson History Museum," Pickett said. "We would tell the Thomas Green Clemson story. We would tell the military story. Then we have all this amazing stuff from Harvey Gantt and desegregation and the RC Edwards administration; we're going to have a whole room dedicated to just that. A whole room dedicated to the history of the Tiger paw. 

"I want this to be a part of the game-day experience: Bring folks up to the museum, get something to drink, sit on the porch and reconnect with other alumni. And bring your children so they can see all this history. Because we're more than just athletics. That's a huge part of our identity, but there's so much more. I want folks to experience that and see that in a tangible manner. And that will familiarize our alumni base with all of our history. So when something comes out that we haven't heard before, it's not as shocking.

"That's my vision. That's my dream."

Pickett also shares the story of how his and his wife's life changed over the 16 months that their daughter Sadie Margaret lived before passing in June of 2017.

To contribute to the Clemson History Museum, go to the following web site:

https://iamatiger.clemson.edu/giving/historic-properties

 

 

 

Mike Noonan

Mike Noonan doesn't sugarcoat where he thinks college athletics is headed.

"Buckle up and hold on tight, because we're going to go through a hurricane," he said.

Noonan, who has led Clemson to two national titles in men's soccer, is privy to major changes taking shape in the college game.

"We've made about five different attempts to become a two-semester sport, and modernize the sport, but we have hit roadblocks in the NCAA bureaucracy every time," he said.

"So with all the changes going on with college athletics, and there's been a number of changes in the governing body at U.S. Soccer ... we re-engaged in conversations with them.

"There was a pilot program put forward, similar to the College Football Playoff. We're not leaving the NCAA, but we would play over two semesters and there'd be a national tournament sponsored by U.S. Soccer at the end of the spring portion of our season. The national governing body would pay for the championship, and we would be able to progress our game in a way that we haven't been able to." 

Noonan said athletics directors have been in "great discussions" with U.S. Soccer about adopting the pilot program for the 2026-27 year.

He said there are different championship models that feature 36 teams, 48 teams and even 72 teams.

"We all feel favorable that it's going to happen. It will be a big change."

Noonan also shares how, a few years into his Clemson tenure, he significantly changed his recruiting model.

"When we got here we were in a position where we had to just look for talent. And talent without character is a recipe for disaster."

Noonan consulted a familiar name as he constructed his new model: One Dabo Swinney.

Swinney's advice to Noonan:

It's not what works everywhere; it's what works at Clemson.

"That flipped a switch for me," Noonan said. "We came up with 10 recruiting criteria and decided we were going to recruit to them. And any player that we were going to let come into our program was going to have to tick seven of those criteria."

 

 

 

 

Patrick Sapp

As college athletics enters the revenue-sharing model, Patrick Sapp has a different perspective than most because:

1) He played in the NFL;

2) His son Josh is currently being paid to play at Clemson.

Josh, preparing for his third year with the Tigers, certainly didn't command the major price tag earned by some of the team's elite weapons including Cade Klubnik, Antonio Williams and Peter Woods.

But there were actual negotiations and he is making an actual cut of the revenue share.

"Going through the negotiating process and conversations with Josh was very interesting," Patrick said. "It truly reminded me of the NFL contractual conversations that my agent and I went through when I played for San Diego and Arizona. 

"What's the player's value? What has he contributed? What do the coaches feel like a player can contribute in the future? All those things go into what a player demands from the university, or from the internal collectives. And that is truly how those numbers are reached.

"The other influence on this whole thing is other school are now interested in your players. So for people who say 'This is all crazy,' schools are now coming after your starters. It's not as much about kids being angry over playing time. It's now a case of, you have to protect your starters all 12 months of the year."

Sapp says he does have some concerns over what gobs of money can do the minds of young men who are still in their formative years and expected to attend classes and make progress toward graduation.

"Fortunately my son has me. And we are definitely taking care of his money the right way. He's definitely with a financial planner, accountant and all those surrounding things. And we're not doing it just to manage it for him; we're doing it to educate him along the way so he truly understands it. He and I talk about what's important and not important about how you spend your money, so that he can have those good habits early in life.

"Unfortunately all kids don't have that situation. So then it's up to the coaches and the support staff and all those people to wrap their arms around those young men who are in those situations so they don't do crazy things with the money they have. 

"And I explained it as simple as this to my son: 'This is the only time in your life where you will make a significant amount of money with no financial responsibility. So given that, the money you make in college should triple by the time you leave. Because you have no expenses. This is the only time in your life that you will have that, so let's get a head start on life.' That's where our conversation started."

Sapp also gives his thoughts and insights on the fundamental defensive flaws in 2024 that led Dabo Swinney to fire Wes Goodwin and bring in Tom Allen from Penn State.

Jon Blau and Eric Mac Lain

It's been a surreal week for The Post and Courier's Jon Blau, who reacquainted himself with Tom Allen after covering Allen when he was Indiana's head coach.

Before Blau left Bloomington for Upstate South Carolina in 2021, he was presented with an Indiana football helmet signed by Allen.

Now Blau considers possession of the helmet a conflict of interest and is considering auctioning it off.

Blau has plenty of stories and insight into Allen for fans curious about the coach's backstory and what makes him tick.

Eric Mac Lain rejoins the podcast to give his take on Dabo Swinney's recent big move and what it means for the overall state of the program.

Also, what does Mac Lain think about the state of college football as it moves quickly toward the revenue-share model?

Once upon a time, Mac Lain was stoked to get free swag from the Orange Bowl after repeat appearances there.

Now, Clemson's highest-paid assistant coach (Allen at $1.9 million) isn't making as much as the quarterback.

"I'm just mad I came along too early to get some of that money," Mac Lain said.

 

Beth Hoole of FOX Carolina News

Beth Hoole was a total stranger to the Clemson-South Carolina rivalry when she moved from Fargo to Greenville in 2022 to be the sports director at FOX Carolina News.

"I've never experienced anything like this rivalry, and it's so much fun. When people say sports are so much different in the South, it's so true. It's wild how passionate and upset people can get about the other side."

Hoole has fully immersed herself in all aspects of the job, and now she's specializing in helping tell the stories behind Clemson athletics as part of her station's formal relationship with the school.

Once upon a time, Hoole was the first female sports director in the history of North Dakota. It was not well received, as she got nasty emails telling her she should be working in the kitchen and had no business covering sports.

A Nebraska grad, Hoole has learned to be comfortable in her own skin as she explores the deeper layers of the backgrounds of players and coaches.

And her regular access to Dabo Swinney and Brad Brownell has given her a fascinating window into how the two coaches operate behind the scenes.

Hoole also recounts getting roasted (in a playful way) by Mike Krzyzewski when he learned she is from the Chicago suburbs.